This Seems Like A Pretty Fair Assessment Of The Z From Car and Driver

[LZ23]

But that's kind of the point. That you have to go out and immediately spend $5k (or more) to get it to perform the way it should from the factory , for a $52k car.

Let's face it - this car has been completely hyped up for the past couple years , by Nissan and everyone else . Now that we see the reality of the car , it's clear that it isn't some high performance track star vehicle.

Going back almost 2 years ago Hiroshi Tamura said it was not designed as a track car but a gt car.I don't think Nissan really cares about the maybe 1% of the peolpe that will track it.They will sell every car they make and wouldn't be suprised if they sell more Z cars in the first year than Supra has sold in 3 years.

 

[NiZmonium]

Going back almost 2 years ago Hiroshi Tamura said it was not designed as a track car but a gt car.I don't think Nissan really cares about the maybe 1% of the peolpe that will track it.They will sell every car they make and wouldn't be suprised if they sell more Z cars in the first year than Supra has sold in 3 years.

I agree that the z will sell like hotcakes regardless. Especially the sport model at $43,000

 

[indio22]

I agree that the z will sell like hotcakes regardless. Especially the sport model at $43,000

Except I think that price will be largely unobtainable. A treasure hunt looking for it. After ADMs and other hijinks, likely considerably higher out-the-door price. (At least in USA.)

And then by next year or after, the MSRP will go up from there as well. I've seen this movie play out the last couple years with some other scarce/popular vehicles.

 

[takemorepills]

"It's an attractive proposition on paper and at first glance, but, as it turns out, the 2023 Nissan Z is not the budget world-beater Z-cars have been in the past. Budget does seem to be the operative word here, but in this case it applies to Nissan management, which obviously didn't allocate enough of one to thoroughly shake up the segment.

I, personally, don't ever remember the Z being a "world-beater" granted, I wasn't around for the first few years of the Z, that car really didn't have much competition, it aped the "personal car" style of the time, which happened to be trendy little European garbage buckets, and steam rolled them with COMPETITIVE performance and far better reliability at a good price.

I'm very familiar with actual experience of ZX's beginning with the 280, both 300's and the FM Z's.

None of these were ever "World-beater" the Z32 came pretty close, but the Supra stole that thunder, if we disregard the existence of Porsche.

The FM Z's were in a class of one for quite a while, but if you compare them to other contemporary 2 seater coupes, the FM Z's didn't really ever enjoy any superiority over a "competitor" which you would've needed to consider coupes from a near class, such as BMW.

I really think the new Z is basically upholding it's place in time perfectly.

Just like the Z32 being ALMOST the best, at least the new Z is actually cheaper than the Z32TT was, not even accounting for inflation, which if that's considered, the new Z does improve on the past.

Again, as always, it's risky to mention European (BMW) or the Corvette, or the Supra. Seems just like almost every Z generation

 

[Kbl911]

Seems just like almost every Z generation

I actually agree with you on that point. I think the Z has never been a true "segment leader" when you look at the sports car landscape in totality.

Seems to me, the disappointment insinuated in the article is that this feels much more distinctly like a missed opportunity than past Zs. Too compromised from the outset, particularly considering the price point. It's a shame, because it's really lovely to look at.

 

[takemorepills]

I actually agree with you on that point. I think the Z has never been a true "segment leader" when you look at the sports car landscape in totality.

Seems to me, the disappointment insinuated in the article is that this feels much more distinctly like a missed opportunity than past Zs. Too compromised from the outset, particularly considering the price point. It's a shame, because it's really lovely to look at.

One of the influential YTer's did a great video on the Z, where the video opens with a financial infographic showing how people have ever less disposable income since the first Z came out. Very appropriate as a 2 seater is a discretionary purchase, and maybe a CUV makes more sense.
The point is that it makes little sense for Nissan to dump huge resources into a diminishing segment. I think Nissan did the best they could.

I think people are forgetting that we are dealing with Nissan here. Be honest, think about what kind of company they are, the challenges they've had. They suck, TBH. they partnered with Mitsubishi for God's sake!

And I think people are also choosing to ignore that all vehicles have gone up on average 12% in MSRP, basically $5k per vehicle IN ONE YEAR.

I hope everyone's so unhappy that I have a chance to get a Z at MSRP or below

 

[Kbl911]

And I think people are also choosing to ignore that all vehicles have gone up on average 12% in MSRP, basically $5k per vehicle IN ONE YEAR.

That's crazy, if true! Where did you find that data? Perhaps I'm searching incorrectly, but I am not seeing any actual data regarding MSRP increases, only the rise in average transaction prices (which are largely attributed to buyers simply choosing more expensive models of specific vehicles, from what I'm reading).

I'd be curious to dig into it!

 

[takemorepills]

That's crazy, if true! Where did you find that data? Perhaps I'm searching incorrectly, but I am not seeing any actual data regarding MSRP increases, only the rise in average transaction prices (which are largely attributed to buyers simply choosing more expensive models of specific vehicles, from what I'm reading).

I'd be curious to dig into it!

https://fortune.com/2022/06/11/used-cars-new-prices-inflation-market/

Not sure if that's transaction prices or MSRP. I know several new models saw significant MSRP increases, such as the Tundra

 

[takemorepills]

That's crazy, if true! Where did you find that data? Perhaps I'm searching incorrectly, but I am not seeing any actual data regarding MSRP increases, only the rise in average transaction prices (which are largely attributed to buyers simply choosing more expensive models of specific vehicles, from what I'm reading).

I'd be curious to dig into it!

I went and checked the Tundra price increase from 2021 MY to 2022 MY (I paid attention because I've been trying to buy a 2022) and it was 13-14% average price increase for as similar as possible models, and they added some ridiculously expensive higher end, Capstone and TRD Pro, which pushes the MSRP deep into the $70's

BTW the Tundra also went from na to turbo, probably some of the cost increase

 

[Kbl911]

https://fortune.com/2022/06/11/used-cars-new-prices-inflation-market/

Not sure if that's transaction prices or MSRP. I know several new models saw significant MSRP increases, such as the Tundra

Thanks!

Yeah, this looks to be referencing the same data that I was seeing - average transaction prices rather than actual MSRP increases. Like, if we're were talking about MSRP-specific inflation, we'd see the same model Ford Mustang suddenly jumping up like $5,000 in MSRP year-over-year, and it doesn't seem like that's exactly what the data is demonstrating, just that people are buying more expensive vehicles.

Not that it's impossible for both to be true, I just can't see how this data supports the MSRP side.

 

[takemorepills]

Thanks!

Yeah, this looks to be referencing the same data that I was seeing - average transaction prices rather than actual MSRP increases. Like, if we're were talking about MSRP-specific inflation, we'd see the same model Ford Mustang suddenly jumping up like $5,000 in MSRP year-over-year, and it doesn't seem like that's exactly what the data is demonstrating, just that people are buying more expensive vehicles.

Not that it's impossible for both to be true, I just can't see how this data supports the MSRP side.

The jumps for new model releases are significant recently. Incumbent models are losing money in some cases as costs spiral (Mach-e)

 

[indio22]

That's crazy, if true! Where did you find that data? Perhaps I'm searching incorrectly, but I am not seeing any actual data regarding MSRP increases, only the rise in average transaction prices (which are largely attributed to buyers simply choosing more expensive models of specific vehicles, from what I'm reading).

I'd be curious to dig into it!

Might differ across automaker and models. I saw GM announced a 6k increase for the Hummer. Ford bumped the Bronco up by at least 2k since intro. Several thousand on the Ford F150 and others. The only vehicle I know that went down in MSRP, was the GM Bolt EV.

I think automakers want in on the action, if big spending buyers are willing to pay more, instead of that extra going in ADMs to the dealers.

A concern is if these higher MSRPs will end up baked in and not go away. In which case sr*w all of it, I'm happy enough with my current vehicles. 5/10k+ buys me and family a lot of fun in other areas of life, I'm not throwing that at some car.

 

[Kbl911]

The jumps for new model releases are significant recently. Incumbent models are losing money in some cases as costs spiral (Mach-e)

Definitely true that there are models that are suffering in profitability. Particularly EVs and PHEVs.

Having said that, we can circle back to the main point which was that people are ignoring the general rise in year-over-year MSRP as it relates to complaints about Z pricing, which I'm still not convinced is true in either way: 1) I don't think the complaints raised in the C&D article and by some commenters were based upon the Z costing too much for the consumer to accept (even if some do object to it) but, rather, that it just might not be good enough at its price; 2) I don't know that the increase we're seeing is truly a broad scale MSRP increase market-wide. Automakers are just focusing on higher priced iterations of their vehicles during a time of scarcity, right?

 

[indio22]

Definitely true that there are models that are suffering in profitability. Particularly EVs and PHEVs.

Having said that, we can circle back to the main point which was that people are ignoring the general rise in year-over-year MSRP as it relates to complaints about Z pricing, which I'm still not convinced is true in either way: 1) I don't think the complaints raised in the C&D article and by some commenters were based upon the Z costing too much for the consumer to accept (even if some do object to it) but, rather, that it just might not be good enough at its price; 2) I don't know that the increase we're seeing is truly a broad scale MSRP increase market-wide. Automakers are just focusing on higher priced iterations of their vehicles during a time of scarcity, right?

The cost conscious buyer needs to pick and choose these days, looking for bargains among the current vehicle offerings. I made a post in an earlier thread, comparing historical price increases of BRZ vs 370Z/new Z. Generally speaking the BRZ would be the bargain hunter choice. With an 11% vs 30% price increase since 2019.

What do you think will happen when (if) vehicle scarcity subsides? It would be easy to simply drop down the ADMs, since they are not set. But once MSRPs go up, those prices seem more locked in. Unless vehicle makers are counting on consumers to continue losing their minds and paying ever higher prices.

 

[Heavy Dupree]

BTW the Tundra also went from na to turbo, probably some of the cost increase

Gen 4 Tundras also got all all-new chassis and multi-link rear suspension on top of the FI engine, plus a huge boost in towing and payload capacity.